Berlin:mixed: lottery and regular mixed teams

On the facebook event there was a request to give teams who play in a mixed constellation on a regular basis an advantage in the lottery.

The arguments for it put forth were focused on creating an environment to encourage such behaviour, i.e. to motivate people to play in mixed teams also at non-mixed tournaments.

Here is how we (the organisers of the mixed) feel about this:

After this post we talked internally if we should give an advantage in the lottery to "regular mixed teams"and decided against it for the following reasons:
1) There is no clear definition of what a “regular mixed team” even is. (What about people who always play in the same mixed constellation but fewer tournaments or on a lower level? We don’t want the mixed to give an advantage for players who travel a lot or for players playing on a high level.)
2) We agree that more tournaments should be mixed! But instead of us now giving an incentive for people to play in mixed teams on other tournaments to have better chances to get in, we feel like it is the responsibility of the community and the organisers of other tournaments to make them mixed.
3) Such a rule would be unfair to poloamorous polo players, i.e. players who like to change their team a lot. Say someone always plays in mixed teams but likes to change their team-mates. This is behaviour we would like to encourage as well, but the proposed solution does not take this into account.

Thanks again for the inputs - it’s awesome that this is being talked about and that our community is moving in this direction!

Let’s keep the discussion going!

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I think this is an interesting concept, but the organizational overhead is a bit too complicated… If anyone would like to start the “Mixed Teams Association” or something and keep track of the stats, this could work. Then the organizer of a tournament calls the MTA representative and asks which teams currently follow the criteria – whatever they may be. Poloverse could be a cool platform to run such a thing transparently.

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Coming back to the discussion old of two weeks on an actual topic:

Dear Berlin Mixed Organisers,

PLEASE CONCIDER WHAT FOLLOWS <3 or let’s talk about how to modify it to better promote the coed goals.

After some brainstorming on FB with a great contribution of Bike Polo Berlin and players who care (also saw the discussion [*1]) and who gave time to talk about it, here is the proposal for a rule aiming to fairly advantage the entry to coed tournaments for male players for whom gender is already not a criterium since a while. When accepted, this rule may also strengthen that more mixed teams play not-mandatory coed tournaments.

Proposal for a rule :

Teams in which both [*2] male players individually have played at least 50% of all [*3] their tournaments with at least one WTNB player [*4] in the period from 01.01.2021 until the registration for the coed tournament in 2022 would have double chance in lottery, same as the teams registered to it with 2 WTNB players.

Each team should inform the organisers if they meet the rule to have a double chance at the lottery. They would provide their lists [*5] of played tournaments with team compositions- one for each male player. Random control would follow.

From where originated the idea ?

This rule seems to adress all the issues that were given against just letting Caramba in without lottery.

#letcarambain could be a symbolic measure to show support to a team that has right mentality to chose teammates for the long term, based on their fit and skills, regardless gender. The common sense of all those with whom I had time to discuss about it indicated that Caramba not participating at a coed if unlucky in the lottery is pure aberration, noone formulated open disagreement about Caramba being straight in as a kind of special guest (but i had a couple of non-responses to the question. No other arguments than those cited further).

However in search for fair rule, rather than exceptional measure, the one written above was composed, it answers to :

The list of arguments againt and for it :

  1. What about men supporting women, but who prefer to change teams ? - SOLVED

  2. What about those who play little number of tourneys ? - SOLVED

  3. What about teams with lower performance ? – SOLVED

  4. What about not having enough WTNB in Europe, so its possible to play with them at not mandatory coed tourneys ? – NOT AN ARGUMENT, sorry. Usual tourneys have 12-24 slots, at least 40 euro WTNB play at Berlin mixed, enough to have one in a large half of the teams at any turnament, maybe even at euros… just saying. Additionally, the proposed rule merely expects 50% of the tournaments played with WTNB players.

  5. What about WTNB that play at lower level yet ? – NOT AN ARGUMENT, sorry. Yes, top WTNB have lower level than top males (little overall number), but they have certainly same level than any mid range males (big overall number). Also, if you have more experience and skills - you can team up with less experienced WTNB and work for them on court. You will not win, but you will invest, like you are happy to invest by bringing a sporty young male newbie.

  6. What about « I had the intention to play in a mixed team, but we didn’t pass through lottery/someone couldnt travel »- SOLVED, like for the polo ruleset, unfortunately quantify the intention is not doable, nobody argues about that weak point of the ruleset, right ? On the other hand- you are not penalised when you invite a WTNB as a sub because this player is the last one available. FACTS ONLY taken in count.

  7. What about « this rule disvantages the WTNB players who teamed up with men unfitting the 50% criterium » - NOT SOLVED DIRECTLY. Still in the way of solving it undirectly. The whole thing is aiming to lower the unequal number of requests that WTNB use to receive : a lot for mixed, much less or none for non mixed. The rule is made to motivate non-WTNB to team up with WTNB. Because if it is accepted, it will draw attention to gender bias in polo (seems unbelievable, but some new male players are not aware of it) and those who wish to contribute to solve it may be encouraged by the rule to do the steps. Sacrify little, to earn more. At one point we, the WTNB, should be aware that if each one only looks for own immediate profit, status quo will change as slow as it goes.

Voila, if more arguments arise, please, players express yourself. Things must be said in order to be done. Thank for your attention those who read and care.


*1 - discussion on FB page of Berlin Mixed event, in comments to the announcement about the entry conditions, dated 14 february

*2 - teams with 2 WTNB players have already double chance at lottery, so not concerned here.

*3 - by « all tourneys » are meant tourneys with free choice of teammates -larger than an intra-club. Squads benches and mandatory coeds count too, but obviously not the single player format.

*4 - « one WTNB player » may be the same or different player at each tourney.

*5 - « providing a list » would be for Berlin mixed 2022, further an interface could be created where all tournaments record is concerved, so it would become semi-automatic.

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I am sorry, but it is simpy too late now to implement this at berlin:mixed22 (plus all the stated reasons from above). Is anyone else organizing another mixed gender tournament this year?

If you wanna toy the idea around a little more, I just posted the provisional list of registered teams. You could try to apply the rule to this list, fantasy league style, and see how it would affect this year’s lottery. I have also a list with more info, such as genders and cities, if you need it, or even the list from the previous edition. Should make for some nice simulations.

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thanks elena for this great write-up and the direction you are pushing!

here are my two cents on the topic:

  1. As Emilio said, it’s a bit too late to implement such a rule this year, the lottery will happen tomorrow - but let’s discuss this for other mixed tourneys this year or for the mixed23.

  2. I still don’t particularly like this rule - it feels like a fairly complicated and specific/local solution to a systematic, global issue. But I also don’t think my opinion on the matter matters too much - so:

  3. I would like to hear from more people on this! Do you think changing the rules at some chosen tournaments, making them mixed+ tourneys, is the way to go? Or should just more tournaments be mixed? Or do you think other measures would be more effective in bringing more male players to play with WTnB people on a regular basis?
    apart from discussing this further on here, maybe we could have an official discussion round - on how to make polo more sustainably inclusive - during the mixed22, maybe on Friday evening (possibly hybrid online-offline, so people not attending the event can participate). What do you think? @mironova_e, you could present the issue or the solution, we could ask other people to present or just have an open discussion?

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