Is scooping pooping?

Discussions Rules
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Scooping is not pooping until a certain point.
I mostly like scooping because tons of players are focusing on that, thinking it is the craziest thing in bike polo while I’m scoring goals.

Joke apart, I DO LIKE efficiency and sorry scoopers, except a few of you, you are just loosing efficiency.

Scooping is useful just a few seconds for a whole tournament. Having a look at every finale of big tournaments since … forever … I can only say that the best players / teams are not scooping.

To know how to scoop is great, it’s all about ball and mallet control. It’s the same as juggling a football ball : best players know how to do it with tricks etc, but do they do that in the finale of the world cup … ?

To finish, a big mistake that was done was to increase the scoop diameter of the heads in the past ! To decrease that and come back to smaller diameter with flat surface instead of tapered would make scooping way better !

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i totally agree with @Bouchaaaaard and that means a lot.
@pajac the slashing was a joke and and the only person i would crash into on purpose is still @Bouchaaaaard
have fun.

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1000% Agree!
Ppl scooping too hard, and Bouchard shooting Ducks laughing!

We/You have to understand that ‘over-scooping’ or too much ‘self-scooping’ destroys the dynamics of the game. It makes it “throw-ball-polo” contest.
Self-scooping slows down the game af and destroys the teamplay ‘passing’ element of the game.

If you like it like that, let it be, but I’m just feel sorry for your teammates ;)

As Bouchaaaard mentioned, this downhill ride started, while they increased the scooping diameter of the mallet heads…

Of course there are good reasons and moments to scoop it and poop it, the question is - where is the limit to all of this?

I always wonder about this 2 sec rule for scooping the ball. Did you ever called it as a ref? Bc i think this should be watched more carefully, since I think some players over do it, taking clear advantage of it. Bc nobody really care about this rule.

Peace

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<3

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The two second rule is for ball jointing (when you press the ball down on the ground) and yes I have seen it called before

Scooping is limited by three changes of direction and I believe everyone who is good enough to do that is also smart enough to not do more than that

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thx for clarification! I’d better re - read the rules once more :D

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sorry for off topic. but i have to scoop a personal advice to @Tony_Makarony fuck ze rules. dont read it. never. dont mention it again. lets concentrate on live comments for this year.

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im slowly preparing for my polo retirement plan and becoming the most rich and annoying ref ever forever!

this thread needs a moderator! :D

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I gave up scooping in 2015 when I suffered from a bad case of donut balls at NAs in Lexington. A lot of scoop tactics I was relying on weren’t possible because the ball was just too soft after 30 seconds on the blistering asphalt. I came home and haven’t scooped since in any meaningful way.

I agree with what @Bouchaaaaard has said about how the tactic is weak from a competitive point of view.

I think we could limit changes of direction to one meaning you can drag scoop to lob and cross your front wheel from mallet side. But, it would remove self scoops.

Perhaps the better move might be to reduce the open end diameter to milk ninja size or similar. This wouldn’t remove it but would make it more difficult. Let’s face it, if the ball is crisp and the mallet is fresh, scooping isn’t hard.

I think double cap, despite believing it would be awesome, would make mallet head construction quite difficult.

@andy_h made a great point when we were discussing this. He said that keeping the game 2d and on the ground like ice hockey will ultimately speed the game up and lead to better creative play. Sometimes limitations are required for creativity to flourish.

Bravo to @Mega_shuffle for bringing up the conversation in an open manner. Clearly given the response it was on people’s mind or at least it is a contentious topic that needs addressing. Even if the only result is to take the temperature of community sentiment.

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We/You have to understand that ‘over-scooping’ or too much ‘self-scooping’ destroys the dynamics of the game. It makes it “throw-ball-polo” contest.

We don’t need to understand it Tony every person for and against regulating scooping more stated that “too much” or “over scooping” is bad. In general some of us thinks that over scoopers are “punished” enough by ineffectiveness of such a style of play, will be punished more when people will learn how to defend it bettr and rules are good enough to keep scoops not overpowered, while the others thinks that it has such a negative impact on game and its development that we should limit it more and more.
(actually it is such a poor way of discussing things, “I am right, you just have to understand”)

There are two limitations that comes to my mind, that imho are reasoanble:

  • limit the diameter on the head more - to the limit that is still scoopable but maybe not easy
  • limit the height or angle to/with which ball escapes a head (of course it must be defined in a “reffable” way) in a way that will make scoop passes going on a lower altitude
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I hate pineapple pizza

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i really enjoyed reffing fhbpc 24 for the huge amount of teams , and skilled ones , present that week end.

amongst these teams, one made it to the top with a powerful combination : autobanh

in finals ( i timed itin the link above) they held a very tigth game against ayne

10 min in , score was still 0-0 and dodi gets in , after a few attempts to crack open the defense with bouchard with a solid momo goalie, dodi finally catch sleeping fonzo on a bad defensive position , then self scooped twice to himself from behind goals into a great reverse side “pearl harbour” . him offering this goal to his team will allow them to take the upper hand on that game and give a really hard time for autobanh to find a solution.

fast rewind to , what , 2016 ? dodi makes a deal with dom mallet to get his name on a product that he will design + get for free of course : a very light and thin aluminium shaft 0.6mm with a very light head , and a maxed out scoop. uncut length is also one of the features.

the product itself sells poorly cuz people break it very fast and the conect system is weird … but dodi will happily use it to develop his new style and cement his new position in the world champ team , especially during finals you will see him carry the light green shaft
allowing him to endlessly self scoop to himself, but also offering more passing options to the user since its length makes it harder to cover as a defenser.

basically i m saying how dodi introduced this type of endless scooping to himself , with a very long mallet ( it has its importance ) and now we are in carbon era.

because scooping motions destroy your wrist tendons so having a very light mallets is definetly a boost for this. but having a short mallet makes scooping a bit harder and less fluid , so you need long and light.

the solution ? many proposed : double cap, more restriction like , self scooping once only , then pass , or scooping for a pass only…
but really what you need is … and i ve been saying it …

its …
itssss

a clock for possession , individuals and team .

this way, you can self scoop as mich as you want cuz you sucking the playing time off your team, defense just have to do a good job at interfering with you and inventually you will either release the ball in panick because the counter is nearly over OR ball turnover.

this mechanism obviously comes from the only sport i ever played before polo , basket ball . but it has very similar mechanism in a way that basket ball players can “scoop to themselves” endlessly too with dribbles ( and they can be very good , and very tall ) so to keep the team play interesting , the clock on possession or timed possession is a must ! everyone is subject to time ! short and tall ! good timing is rewarded ! its time for more timing !

a side effect of the clock is also de-escalating violences ( see how bad you want slash that scooping mallet ? )
and just performing good, time consuming defense , is good enough to pressure the offense into finding a quick clean solution

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Leaving aside the practical problems of timing individual and team possession, I don’t see how such a change would have any effect on the usefulness of scooping to keep possession, dribble around players and pass the ball.

In my mind, scooping isn’t increasing the duration of possession. If anything, it combines the option to possess with the option to pass at any given time. This is an efficiency. My guess is that scooping would at least remain as prevalent but it could perhaps increase.

We all have our hobby horses when it comes to changing the rules but horses for courses - this ain’t it.

The main problem with scooping for me isn’t that it allows players to possess the ball, execute passes or get around an opponent. My problem is purely aesthetic. When I think of beautiful polo I think of intricate dribbles around players followed up by strong accurate shot passes.

Arguably the most entertaining players who’ve even touched a mallet don’t scoop. I think that this value assessment would apply equally to non playing spectators and players alike. I’m thinking Koyo, Emmet, Joey Halvorsen, Chris Hammersly, Shitty Andrew, Luca, Elodie… Maybe I have a thing for that style. That could be true. But, if we really want to play lacrosse on bikes then we should just submit and go buy some stick nets…

If I think a little deeper into what the substantive difference between scooping and not it likely stems from the fact that slowing to scoop limits the average speed of the game. Most scoop moves require that you slow down to execute them. Perhaps I just want the game to be faster. It’s hard to deny that people who avoid scooping and opt for dribbling are far less limited in their ability to continue their momentum while they have possession and when attacking a loose ball.

If I’m right that it slows down the game on average then perhaps you are right Benji. However even if your idea would work for this reason I think for reasons of practicality we’d be better off addressing it directly given that it’s likely to have many other unintended and likely negative effects. And that’s before we even begin discussing the difficulty of actually timing possession. Defining possession is quite a pesky problem. Luckily, nothing much turns on our sloppy definition at the moment.

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yeah, keep the game 2D.
:white_check_mark: ball-jointing
:x: spelling your name in the air with the ball in your mallet

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Andy! It is already covered in rules (with exception for people whose name is a single letter)

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Hi,

I also think the « issue » with scooping (in general) is mainly aesthetics.

My personal opinion on the matter is that scooping is like engraving a glass. Does not make the wine better by adding blurry curvy grooves.

Also, I’m already having a hard time to perfect myself in blowing an honest well shaped glass that I’m too exhausted to engrave it afterward.

But hear me out, I totally respect the work behind the fine touch of a passionate engraver !

it’s also true that, sometimes, I have the feeling that self-scooping (in particular) is developing a « self-game »… skillful AF, very impressive, probably attractive to many, but also kinda sterile.

Am I the only one seeing it this way ?

Anyway, I find the question legit, so thank you for putting the topic on the table, and let’s discuss it ?

We’ve indeed spent years to shape hardcourt bike polo the way we love to play it now, by designing rules that bring a more open, creative and collective play (ball joints, blocks, crease, interference, hooking and more). Safety, and thriving games were always the aim. I think they still are. It would be a pity that the sport slides the opposite direction after such a long journey, without us realising it.

But so far, I’m not sure that self-scooping is widespread enough to make it a threat to a collective and interesting open play…

…Let’s welcome it and see how it goes ?

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@Mega_shuffle with this beautiful court of yours with the time pannel it would be so easy to enforce a timed possession… next LDS ?

the argument saying that it add too much on the ref s irrelevant , we been playing under staffed games for ages but now ive seen promising ref schedules applied at most tournaments.

most games need 4-6 officials and one of them should be the Time referee : timer , crease infractions , box countdowns and ball possessions would be second nature.

its also not necessary to enforce timed possession at every pick up , it wont ruin the game , but it will boost the games flow during competitions

also timed possession regulate a few other heavily critisized situations : constant resets and holding possession in your defensive half.

if you have the possession , you should have a contract to play it as you are the offense !

defense should have a right to set themselves at their best to welcome a team’s offensive play at their best !

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As basketball player that started to play in a club in elementary school then stopped after university, I don’t really see a single reason to introduce 24/8 seconds rules, a lot against. Additionally it will be impossible to ref that. No no no… please don’t ruin the game.
I can elaborate more but it looks like there is no interest in introducing it except @OGxBENJI :thinking:

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yeah no one really want to see this happenning

although i wrote very detailed text many times vouching for it, and how it adress many issues at once in a simple way, people seem to enjoy adding more rules , or twisting an existing rule weirdly ( often , making reffing actually really difficult , more than a clock )

but no one ever gave it a go , so we cant really tell

although i do think that "good " polo games and plays are often lead by a desire to not stall the ball possession , and goals resulting from it are often labeled “boring” by the crowd

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for exemple everyone focusing on the current hot new skill , the issue of endless self scooping , and how it creat an individual play but one could also just run a different ratio and self ball joint around the court for a while too

another one is two players endlessly droping the ball to each others at the mid line until the first defender stop defending or miss step

i m just saying imo the fact the time isnt regulated is what make some of the plays unregulated , more than the actual skillz or equipments

to me the conversation turned into "we are too lazy to organize reffing , we rather see players that are less able to[ …] "

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