"Polo in Europe is so much more of a boys club than in NA"

Discussions
#84

how does it make any sense to do different formats through one season ? it is as comprimising as throwing squad qualifiers and then going back to 3v3 for worlds.

i see only two realistic options :
running a mixed mandatory circuit paralel to the already established one

or

having the main whbpc circuit mandatory mixed , and then a side of non mixed mandatory tournaments

in both case the whole polo crowd gets to play tournaments , but obviously the shine is stronger on the “mixed gender sport” if the main whbpc circuit is mandatory , this visibility will encourage more womens to join the sport and in the long term balance the numbers and gap levels .

i feel like people want to shortcut straight to polls without having “annoying discussions” where loud people (like me ) sucks all the air , but in the end we will have to do it !

1 Like
#85

Yes i admit it’s pretty bad actually.
It’s less bad if you do regional mixed and then have worlds no mixed, because you’ll drop nobody and non-mixed team will try to get to the world via wildcard or special slot.
But it’s weak.

So maybe the most realistic way of interpreting gradually is just :

year 0 : Anoucing the plan
year 0+x : Worlds circuit mandatory

Define x (aim for 2025, 2026 ?)

#86

Hello, here’s a bit of context and explanation :

This poll’s goal is to take the temperature in the community, see where people are at, regarding this new hot topic.

The aim is to collect data, and see how legit all these questions are. The aim is not to bring solutions and to take decisions right away. We don’t have any power, nor any will to do so.
This is just designed to be a starting point for a legit committee to work on this matter.

So to make it very simple we tried to find some possible answers for people that don’t have clear Yes/No answer for this yet.

“Yes but gradually” in my mind was like “I think Yes, but I want players and organisations to have some time to prepare, to find the right approach (whatever it may be, again we’re not debating solutions in this poll”

“I’d prefer an alternative” sounded to me more like “I think No, but I still want some changes to be done to lean towards more representation”

These two options still mean you want a change towards better representation of the flinta community in championships, the first just leans towards the mandatory aspect, and the second goes against it.

:v:

6 Likes
#87

i ll also lay down some context from my perspective: i was trying to engage i a few conversation through here and telegram about inclusivity , and suddenly all these talks got shut down for the sake of giving time to more constructive ways to approach it , this poll was mention as a way to go.

saying this poll has no decisional power is true in a way but also , what if a majority of bike polo players worldwide actually answer it ? the legitimacy will come from the common agreement , if 70% of the world polo crowd answer, and 60% vote for a clear yes to mandatory , you could expect this poll to actually shape some future.

3 Likes
#88

sure, but i think it’s still important to know how the worlds organisation comittee will use it, or not, to make the next worlds format approved.
I opened a thread here :

#89

@Jojo @Woods

  1. Jojo have planned and announced the closure of the quest on 15 march = tomorrow
  2. until now there s about 250 votes.
  3. i suppose the quest is not visible enough and 250 votes is not representative of the total polo comunity ( question: what is the actual size of the polo scene??? who knows? )
  4. I WOULD LIKE TO ASK TO THE QUEST AUTHORS ( Jojo, woods) TO PROLONGATE THE VOTING PERIOD in order to get as close as possible to the overall opinion of the comunity.
  5. I also would like to ask any turney organiser having a poloverse page to link the quest in their page, so in can reach more players.
  6. i ve understood that until today all the major changes in format of world, regional, national champs and in rules were done without popular voting, without any prove of popular agreement. i dont adhere to this kind of procedure. i think that if changes are to be done or a status quo is to be maintained, both should represent the interest of the simple majority of the total number of players.
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#90

Speaking as the rep on the World Bike Polo Organising Committee from Australia, I agree that the best way to make changes is with wide community involvement. That’s why I setup a global vote in 2018 on the format for the 2019 worlds. And that’s why I will advocate for a vote this time.
I have yet to see any objections to votes from the other representatives. But please bear with us.

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#91

I agree that we could have a better sample for this to be relevant, even though more than 350 players have responded so far which is great.

Elena’s point about spreading the word on Instagram pages, Telegram, Poloverse, Facebook, Clubs chat etc is the first step. Lets all try to share this poll around us and to help people understand what this is about.

We’ve seen that over a 100 people responded in the last 24h, so we are on the right track

Let’s keep going !

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#93

New episode of Bitches with a W available on Spotify:

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#94

Hey,

I try to follow up the discussion, I’ve read everything, but there is a lot. Sorry if I miss some details.

I’m kind of “opposed” to the direction of the thread.
Not really opposed, I mean, it’s really great to have this open discussion about it, it may change the thinking way of the few participating or reading.
It is also very nice to try to build something at community level (enforcing mixed championship).

But…
At some point, when something really need to move forward, every level as to do something.
By level I mean the I/you, the individual and the we, clubs, federation etc.
And at the moment I feel a lot of guys are talking but direct the discussion towards the we.

And with my own self, I like the idea to apply to others what I apply to myself.
So I would like to bring a bit of focus on the individual level.

Question:
Who has dedicated a period, like at least a season or a year of polo tournament, playing only mixed at whatever tournament, even without mixed rules ?

If that idea seems strange to you, consider why?
Why you do only here and there and not all year long ?
What are the differences between tournaments that are ok to form a mixed team and tournament where it isn’t?

In society, not everything is guided by laws, there are ethics, beliefs etc…
So if you “guys” really believe it, why do you need a rule ?
Please don’t wait a community level decision, this takes time.
Please just do, more and more mixed team by yourself, and why not dreaming of “only” !?

Cheers !

5 Likes
#95

I would add:
If you keep thinking bike polo is better than the rest of the world because it is mixed by definition…
A lot of things are mixed by definition as well, like politics or executive positions.

Yet, here we go,
Politics:

Executives,
check figure 1

It looks like, as soon as there is a high competition, such as high paid jobs/unique skills etc and just as in our polo euro/world championships, women are less represented.
Women in competitive position get a lot of visibility recently, that’s great though! but it’s a kind of “pink washing” and figures show things are changing slowly (and positively !) in these “mixed” areas of society.

So I’m quite convinced, bike polo being mixed as it is today is not a revolution, and it is, by the way, questionnable (one of the thinking way behind non-mixed sports is to give more space to women so that they can get their own champions for ex).
If we want to innovate, in parallel of mixed championships, each of us has to carry it, the idea of mixed sport, and make it happen.

Now, maybe bike polo doesn’t have to be better than society, if so, let’s get rid of the false underground image and adhere to UCI to get some f**** business going on :rofl:

When do we vote for mixed championships ? :grin:

:ballot_box:

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#96

Talking about finding solutions and stuff, Laura and I are hosting a tournament in Rouen in September.
The concept is easy : we invited 16 FLINTA euro captains who will draft registered players. If you want to register and try your luck, come register before it’s too late !

All info here : FIRE : FLINTA / Invitational / Rouen / Epic (open to all) - #3 by MaxLeChef

<3

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#98

“who’s in charge now ?”

this is pretty genius <3

1 Like
#99

Well, after reading through the 86 comments. I am glad i did.

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#100

I wont beat around the bush. I voted no for mandatory, in a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.
And yet I really hope that polo becomes truly mixed. Sounds like a contradiction to some. I don’t see it that way. Even after discussing this quite a bit at club level, and reading this entire thread.
I do find that there’s a bit of, “you’re either with us or against us” mentality on this. Either black or white. And judging from the vast majority of polo players i know, this isn’t the case.

My main objection to this system, is the inevitable injustice regarding “merit” that this will bring. There’s a lot of talk about privilege here. And I agree, and fully accept that speaking for myself and ironically most others who wrote on this thread (some flintas included), we are privileged. Those of us that know the privilege of integrating long term teams, or never struggling to find one, based on skill or popularity, are indeed extremely lucky.
But I can tell you this from my own experience, and from what i see happen around me. It’s not always the case. And certainly not for the vast majority of players, Flinta or not. Most players reality is to go through the yearly ritual of scrapping around for a team. A huge amount of players never get rewarded with the chances they deserve and work for. Its hard breaking through. The majority of players never get to experience an European championship, even less for the Worlds… even less know the feeling of reaching the latter stages of those tournaments, and only a ridiculous small amount know the feeling of those podium steps.
In polo the lack of opportunities, is compounded by the reality that the metric for quality is often a purely social one. There are no stats, no commentators, no journalists. It is often the case that if you’re shy, or you don’t make your space, then you’re probably out of luck. This is worse for flintas. But not exclusive.
But being realistic… not all male players are ready or deserving of the the big break, neither are all Flintas. I asked in the GVP chat one simple question:
If you have a player who for years is there all the time, puts in the effort, develops their game or simply has the level to ensure a teams ability to challenge for their goals, but just so happens is a male / And on the other hand you have another who in a very clear way does not match that dedication. Who is deserving of a chance?
Had i removed the Male and Flinta from this question, and the answer would be unanimous, yet… with the pronouns included, only one person answered. And it has been the one argument that made question the most my original point of view.
Perhaps, to successfully attain this the future most of us wants, Mixed, requires acceptance for the risk of injustice in the short term (an injustice that flintas are already going through). Like growing pains…

I am truly divided on this topic. So I finish with this. I’ll start with myself, and hopefully my team. And mandatory or not, I’ll mix it up.

I just hope the situation doesn’t arise where a team can’t participate, because they couldn’t get a Flinta to join despite their best efforts, and sincere openness. (Not all teams have the same magnetism)

Have a good one y’all!!

6 Likes
#101

Hey Tom,

Thanks for that message!
I could feel your division on this topic! And we are on the same page, starting with yourselft, is the best way to be active in the process and not wait/frustrate from statu quo.
And I can only agree and applause for bringing up the social parameter to the mercato.
By the way, for the story, we try to bring an « open » mercato in Brussels, we have a channel dedicated to it, but still most of the formation go « under the table »,

Yet I don’t fully understand your position against that you initially express, and the exemple you use, I want to understand better by rising some questions :slight_smile:
You mention that there is a flaw in the merit process, which you mention being the social parameter.
(Nepotism, in its extended form, is quite common in society when there are no diversity guideline in forming a group.)

Yet, you make a case using the merit parameter and the gender parameter, you take the worst case of the matrix, being merit + male and demerit+flinta.
But I thought merit wasn’t really a reality ? Or maybe a 2nd parameter after the social one?
And second, it can be read between lines that this is a common case. Today maybe.
The point we discuss is the polo of tomorrow.
Mandatory mixed to me is a temporary tool, to support bringing as many FLINTAs as possible to competitive level, so that the case you mention is rare enough.
Once this is achieved and if the selection by merit really works, mandatory mixed won’t even be needed.

And last, on a more radical point of view, your case can be read as a crying male afraid to loose is share in a barely meritocratic system that he underline himself.
Turn your case around, not the matrix itself, but the way you look at it.
You describe it from the perspective of 2 males having to select between a merit male and a demerit flinta, having the risk to select the demerit flinta because of the mixity rule.
Yet, all the team will face the same situation, right ? In the end, whatever new rule we are talking about, we should make sure it is fair, right ? We are not talking about moving the ball of a joust 5m towards a team for ex.
So, if all the team face this mandatory mixed in a fair way, and considering that the rare ressource is the competitive flintas, it seems to me that flintas will have the power to select based on the merit of potential (male) teammates.
Is it what hurts you inside ?

I take this radical point of view just to open the discussion window, it’s not meant to be agressive (I say this because I know reading leaves space for interpretation).
I’m really happy we exchange on this topic!

To finish on a nice tone, that remind me an interview of Brazil top female soccer player, Marta Veira Da Silva:

Cheers !

6 Likes
#102

its a lot of philosohical rethorical talk there luca and thomas . at the end of the day you just saying that everyone has to be a good person and understand everything.

lets have a look at the reality of last year season : north american and south american teams obviously did the shift on mixed teams , almost most of them where. in that sense they did what you are expecting everyone to do by themselves.

they played full season together and came prepared. note that lots of teams were also club based or region based.

on the euro side we kept a non mixed mentality ,for good or bad reasons, thats what came up with the team lines up. note that a lot of euro teams are regionally mixed upand not necessary from one club or even one country , sure its easier to meet each other in europe VS america ( size of the region + rail transports developments)

at the end of the worlds one of the south american captain came to me and conclude “next worlds we will be less romantic about teams and be more like you euro mixing up, and make a south american all star with all 4 best players from the region , regardless of clubs and gender equity”

thats why im voting mandatory mixed for the next upcoming worlds ( and only the next one) , because if you just leave it to everyone appreciation then not everyone is on the same page.

everyting else luca commented on the female roaster level is true , and yes elite flinta they will have the ball in their camp to choose the best team but i dont agree with your conclusion of “males feeling being hurts” , its more like all too teams will be disbanded to acomodate 1 flinta player instead of their usual partners. for a lot of teams thats enough to quit playing, not because they are mysoginistic patriarchal figures but because they dont feel like their last 10 years of efforts coming together is valued.

a mandatory mixed world for me carry the human values we want to display as a community.
it doesnt prevent "skillz only " tournament and circuit to happen, and by separating them from the worlds circuit allows even more mixcity ( get rid of the 3/4 country rule ? you can mix your team freely without fearing to not get a wildcard spot )

another option would be to create a mandatory mixed circuit on the side and keep the current circuit as it is. but for some reason this one comes like a spit in the face of flinta players.

theres is many ways for us to come together or disagree , it s just up to us to be intelligent about it

1 Like
#103

“A good person and understand everything”
Hum That’s a big shortcut to summarise and erase all the details :grimacing:
Except criminals, most humans try to be a good person, yet some good people doesn’t believe in gender equality.
And there are more than we think, many says so but when it comes to details such as paycheck or other privileges… they ACT differently.

That’s maybe my (ex) professional Japanese bias: having the mindset is the most important. Once the soul is convinced, your brain logic and body will act accordingly.
If not, the acts then become an “effort” that, on the long run, will probably fade out.

Anyway, happy to count you in the pros :)

1 Like
#104
#105

I didn’t answer back, cause It was not my intention to keep a discussion going, that ultimately brings nothing new to the table.

I don’t mind discussing topics, but it don’t enjoy what feels like discussions as an exercise or ego driven. Even less so when issues as complex as this, so often get divided cleanly into right/wrong. Which is stupid.

No offense Lucas, but your message was hard to follow.
Regarding the merit judgment. Like i said, in some cases its really obvious, in others not so much. There’s no contradiction. And most times these conversations turn into an issue, is when the outcome doesn’t fit neatly into someones point of view.

As for what hurts me inside… that’s just probably a bit too much chocolate.

If there is a problem, i am open to listening, to finding solutions and be part of the way forward. There’s good and bad arguments on each side. Mixed mandatory, brings with it a different sort of injustice. One that might be necessary. But needs to addressed, and if accepted, done so conscious of its shortcomings. See too many people just so eager to be on the “right” side of a topic, massaging arguments until it fits their narrative (from both sides).

So I’ll say it again, and leave it at this. I’ll do what i think is right. Play mixed.
I am still not sold on Mixed Mandatory, but open to it. And I’ll remain as i have done so far, open to help anyone who asks for it. With advice, training, or playing a tournament. And by anyone, i mean… anyone.

Cheers

3 Likes