"Polo in Europe is so much more of a boys club than in NA"

Discussions
#27

I pretty much feel the same as @incognito (it’s not me).
Looking at the world right now i’d say we must, as a new community, take as much as we can opportunities to include as much diversity as we can to create safe, including and cooperative places.

I would add alos that our sport is still very young, there’s a ton of progression margin.
Look at radball, its a mix of circus, bike and soccer and they are exceptionally good at every aspect of this. It’s like 100 year old, like really, not 25 year old like hc bikepolo.
We don’t train (like really-really train), we don’t have coach, etc.
If earth and animals are still a thing in 100 years we will look back at Emmet skill level as if it was the first time he use a bike and a mallet.

So don’t worry, if you do, for the “skill gap” or anything like that, we and next generations of mixed team will have lot of time and aspect of our sport to improve together.

Now, i read that some people fear or don’t like the “mandatory” aspect of it, maybe there’s some ways to strongly encouraging mixed team.

We could ask ChatGPT :slight_smile: or think a bit about it but you can imaging favoring mixed team, and favorite more when there’s more diversity.
Imagine a lottery based entry tournament, all teams get “ticket”, teams with 1 flinta get 2 ticket, teams with 3 get 3 ticket.
Making harder and harder to non mixed team to have an slot.

It should be harmonized as much as possible accross club and countries. National selection for Euro and World could have many prioritized spot, encouraging mixed and discouraging non-mixed teams.

Why not, i don’t know.

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#28

Hello everyone, first of all I thank Jojo Baillat for sharing this topic and I ask you to excuse my broken English which I hope will not prevent you from understanding me. I took the time to read what each of you wrote, each put forward relevant arguments based on your sensitivity.

To begin with, I have been playing polo for a good ten years, I have had the opportunity to participate in all kinds of tournaments across France and Europe, even if I always favor my friends when participating in a tournament, when I don’t do it I always favor courtside affinities, which is why I played with all types of players without thinking about gender, race, level of play, social class, etc. And that’s how I’ve always seen polo.

In France I am a visible minority, and there are few of us, but even if it is not the subject it remains related. I would hate to become a commodity for a team just to be able to participate in a tournament, it would make me extremely uncomfortable to be asked “dimeh plays with us we need a North African”.

in the same vein I find it difficult to understand the obligation in polo, for me even if it is positive it is nothing other than discrimination. Obliging to have a flinta in a team seems to me to be a bad idea morally but also from a feasibility point of view. Toxicity is not the prerogative of men, it is the reality of competitive environments with challenges.

In my humble opinion, inclusiveness must be done locally, but sometimes and I see this from my experience in Perpignan, (small town of 120,000 inhabitants) it does not always work even when you have put in the ingredients to make it work.

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#29

Flintas can tell you how good it feels to be asked to play with them even when the tournament is mandatory (they have told me at least!).*
And if someone has the sort of thinking you described, then no one should probably play with them. You fearing it would happen doesn’t mean it will happen.

*(When in non mandatory tournaments not only they just are not being asked but not considered as viable teammates by some who end up playing with an equivalent level cis male player.)

The point with mandatory is that you can choose who you play with, and as a flinta you have more leverage in the conversation. You get more opportunity. Otherwise you get scraps because of how uneven the playing field is!

Cis man that never thought about what it means to be inclusive, could start to question it and maybe make progress in their own club/environment.

As for you, you’re lucky you’re an elite player you’d be asked regardless of the possible tokenistic value of being part of a minority, but for others they might not be as lucky.
Elodie probably wouldn’t have any problems finding teammates for most tournaments either but what about all the other flintas B & Cs?

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#30

I fear I was misunderstood, so let me clarify my speech. I do not deny the problem and the feelings that members of the Flinta community may have, I am well aware of it and it deeply saddens me. I know what a sensitive topic this is and I don’t want to sound harsh at all. I see that on the side of Montpellier, Bordeaux, Rouen, Lyon… there is a development which offers the possibility for the Flintas to be better integrated, better supported, I think that this is where the solution is found, not in the obligation.

From experience behind every good idea there is a deviation, I took the example of my ethnic origin because it has already happened to me, being invited to meet the quota, unfortunately I think that we should not underestimate that . I sincerely think that it is a just cause but that forcing people to do anything will not do any service, because unfortunately and this is what I want to emphasize is that if we oblige, even for the better reasons, you force a decision without freedom. I see it as a form of paradox.

Changing mentalities, educating people about social problems… I don’t think that’s the role of Bike Polo, for some of us it’s nothing other than a sport, a game, pleasure. I love this sport, like for many of us, it changed my life, allowed me to meet a lot of people from all over the world and interact with them.

I must admit however that you are right, due to my position I am lucky to have never been sidelined, or at least not for long because when I started Bike Polo it was hard to to make a place for yourself even for a man like me, even if it doesn’t affect me directly I’m not insensitive to the subject, I simply think that obligation is not the solution.

I am not a Flinta, and I can neither speak for them or understand their feelings, which is why I make the parallel with the fact of being from the French visible minority, if tomorrow someone is interested in me because I respond to an obligation in order to be able to play I would be disgusted. I hope I’m wrong, I hope that tomorrow people will mix of their own accord because they want to, not because they have to.

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#31

But when from time to time its becoming mandatory Like in Berlin, Milano, Montpellier or Bern in juillet we have huge waiting list like if everyone wants to participate as it is the best kind of tournies …

So lets embrace the fact that sometimes «mandatory» is efficient. We should continue all the season with mandatory mixed tournaments.
Without a big announcement, i am sure not everyone will notice something exept that its for the best

:heart::heart::heart:

Merci Mehdi de participer au débat ça nous fait avancer et merci Jason d’écrire ce que je pense en anglais ça m’évite pas mal de taff.

  • i do am really happy when in mandatory tournaments i can build competitives teams but i am Also sad knowing at the end that it is usually one shots.
    I do Like long terme relationships and i would Like to have this opportunity in bike polo.
    I want to developpe team Spirit, team stratégies , teams challenges from a tourney to an other etc etc
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#32

Thanks for all the different people sharing their opinion on this thread, especially from Flinta players.
@Celeste thanks for getting the “ball rolling” with your initial reply to this thread. Very valuable feedback to read details about the outcome of the Flinta forum.

I prefer to read/hear/listen when it comes to the topic of inclusion but I need to voice something:
I´ve first started playing polo in February 2009, exactly 15 years ago. Since then I recall three occasions of european bikepolo talking “inclusion” and extending this word beyond the inclusion of FLINTA players.

One is a comment by @OGxBENJI, one is @Celeste initial reply to this thread and one is Epiphanie 2024 with it´s special registration including non-white players. In two of the related discussion non-white players have been publicly criticized or the struggles they may have faced in their journey seemingly ignored because of their “current position” in the community.

I highlight this not because I happen to be a “non-white” player as well, but because it seems at odds with MY understanding of inclusion.

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#33

Mehdi, i see what you mean about “the obligation is not a solution”. It was for years also my opinion. However, we all undergo the obligation of the rulset, the obligation to pick up what ever third player at the last minute when one team-mate cant attend an event. Maybe the key point is to see the obligation through a different filter?

Also, everybody can imagine that when someone is not a star or not seen like a promissing player, often theres no choice of team-mates neither. Most of the turneys are attended with an imposed team. So obligation is already there, for all last minutes chosen players, and one must just think about how to accomodate with the actual constellation in order to make best polo possible. Sadly, the most of the time to accomodate means to not disturb and stay in the net.

It’s where i see the full sense at what Jason said about building a long term team. If someone “choses” X player in advance ( lets say “choose”, even if you choice is restricted) and works with them regualry at the pickups or durning several turneys, the outcomes are completely different. And by investing, which means giving space, ball, trust, disscussion about the play, it allows the undersseen player to show what they implicitely learned, but never had the opportunity to show, plus to develop more. In return the ones who have chosen get rid of the negative feeling of imposed choice.

Also what Jojo said: its kind of paradoxal situation, guys are rushing to Berlin mixed, for exemple, but suddenly a mixed euros is problematic. How is it possibly explaned?
Who would dare to loudly admit that guys are not investing the same energy in a mixed, like they would do into the national or euro champs? And why someone would go to the turney to not giving the best polo they have in stock at the moment?

I m not saying “lets do mandatory mixed right now for all the turneys”. I just read through the exposed arguments against it and none seems convincing to me. Maybe also because, like with this one, they were my own arguments while ago, but since i evolved, after spending a time learning about the discrimination mechanisms and consequences, stuff written by smart people in smart reviews.

I also join all those who say " please the interested part express yourself". I know that being in the weaker position and claiming stuff for oneself is a huge step to make. Nevertheless, its an imortant step.

I m also convinced that how things are going untill now is not really leading to equity and inclusiveness ( despite what the comunity pretends to do), its not alowing the same rate of improving to all the players. And this is the main issue for me.

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#34

You are totally right, this is the shittiest part whenever a mandatory mixed is announced (at least for me). And I would ask all cis male players who approach others with this attitude to rethink their approach. Really, just don’t do it! There are so many possibilities to ask a player respectfully…

But luckily there are other requests too and enough players (of all genders) who play in mixed teams regularly.

And as @Jason said, mandatory shifts the agency of team building to flinta* players (ideally of course).

I think we shouldn’t forget that there are other approaches to get more mixed teams (like for the grande royale, which is my preferred one: „ as the previous editions, all teams are welcome to register, but you need to know that we will give a priority to the mixed teams : we will first draw the mixed, then the rest of teams.“)
Maybe there are other ways we haven’t thought about yet…

I agree with you @diMeh, that it needs more than obligation, and that includes a broader understanding of inclusion and struggles thanks @metriod for highlighting that and bringing up points that should be included in this whole discussion and for pushing the topic (here and in the other post.

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#35

@mironova_e by taking the time to reread the previous messages and read yours I believe that the problem is broader, from my prism it goes well beyond objective differences (gender, race etc) I believe I can say and without wanting to dismiss the debate around of the question of Flinta integration (which is not at all a debate as we all agree on this subject), that the problem is broader and rather concerns the level. I really like the idea of ​​making a small group of different levels climb to the tops, I think that locally this is what is happening, I started it was passed on to me then I continued to pass it on to people people who transmit in turn.

The example of mixed Berlin is relevant, I have never participated in it (one day maybe in challah), but I have watched a lot of matches and I have participated in a lot of mixed matches and one thing has always stood out to me. obvious, when adversity arrives and the intensity of the match is felt we find ourselves 9 times out of 10 in the same pattern: 2 flinta in the cage and 4 guys on the court. Even less distant example EH 2K23 WH 2K23, how many flinta are not sticking to their cage? be careful, I want you to understand me clearly, I am not making a generalization at all but I see that this is often the case, it is also perhaps (I hope) a desired choice and that it is ok. Conversely, I have participated in a good number of mixed level tournaments, the most recent in Montpellier, and in my opinion it is the best compromise and the least excluding of all the schemes.

As Daniele de Lyon said, I think we need to increase and encourage tournaments of this type rather than forcing people.

I do not claim to have a solution, as for most people who feel concerned, I put forward my point of view and my arguments with the best feeling

@Johanna Coming back to the question of integration and support for flintas, I do think that people seem resistant or actually being so lack understanding around this. there is the notion of competitiveness and above all a question of affinity which comes into account and which I think everyone underestimates

@metriod Last thing regarding Mateen’s words, I completely agree with your vision, I also found it paradoxical.

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#36

As i said, before going “full mandatory” we could think about pushing the “prioritization” system a bit further :
Registration is a lottery, team with more diversity (x flinta*) could get draw x times more than team with 0 flinta*

*I use flinta in this exemple but the aim could be to include more new player for exemple.
Or in a local league like Ligue Alpine you could favorize local player for exemple without ever exclude any team to invite Lefty Will from Canada and try the lottery with only one chance to be draw.

Could be an idea, we could see maybe more teams with a majority of minority for example, if that make sense.

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#37

I think we all agree that if we want Bike Polo to be inclusive, just waiting for the situation to improve by itself is not ok. We have to do something about it, and I don’t think there is one perfect solution that solves it all. I agree that just imposing mandatory mixed everywhere, without the support of the community would not be good, and we don’t went to end up with a flinta locked forever in the goal situation. So the first thing we need is the support of the community, and that means that people have to educate themselves on those issues, on what systemic sexism and racism is, and actually think how they can do something to make our sport more inclusive.

Priority to mixed, mandatory, several life in the lottery, reserved spots, invitationals, reserved space in clubs, beginners night… there are lots of options to improve the situation, and one of the nice thing about Bike Polo not being federated is that we have space to experiment, both on tournament format, at club level, etc…

I really believe that increasing the presence of flinta in tournaments (not only for Flinta, also non-white, age, …) and especially in High level tournaments would be an extremly efficient lever. Of course it would help to increase the level of Flinta player, but mostly because that is when people are looking, and representation is so important, that’s how we recruit the next generation of players.

I wish it would just become a reflex, and that every time an event is organized, whatever the event, be it the World championship or the local ABC tournament, there is a thought on how to make it more inclusive than the previous year. We may fail, the format can end up being shitty, but I don’t think we can make things worse if we try, and anyway it will make it visible that we are trying.

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#39

I believe that we don’t need to impose anything.

If a club is organising its tournament (and putting a lot of effort into it), let’s give that club complete freedom (it is their effort and will). Let them impose requirements on the team, prioritise the lottery as they want, etc. We could discuss what lottery ideas are worth considering, but we shouldn’t force anything. In my opinion, clubs can organise whatever they want, female-only, flinta-only, non-white-only, non-hetero-only and male-only tournaments. If someone doesn’t like the idea and doesn’t support it, he won’t play - probably, such a tournament will naturally reduce its popularity, player’s level, etc. Every year, there are more mandatory mixed tournaments, and nobody ever imposed it on clubs - I think it’s great. If there is a general consent that this is the better way (some of you implied that such a consent exists), they will naturally become the majority in the calendar.

I also believe that we shouldn’t force mixed teams on Euros or Worlds. If we have more mixed tournaments, there will be more fixed diverse teams “in the hood,” and players will naturally try to continue that lineup in major tournaments.

My final note on the entire topic… Openness and Inclusiveness are prominent and frequent words in this discussion. At the same time, people discuss that topic privately in smaller groups outside the thread. My guess is they feel like only some opinions are welcome, so they want to avoid exposing themselves to hate/cancellation. So, please stop saying that “we all agree” or “something is not debatable” or implying that others need to be educated if they don’t agree. It is just not true. That’s not how you discuss things. Sometimes, it is just offending. It certainly discourages people from participating in discussions. Let me also remind you that sexism, racism and every other discrimination don’t exclude any groups from being discriminated against.

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#40

Hey coucou pajac !
thanks for opening your thoughts here.
i read and reflect on it so i share it here . i’m just quoting some of your sentences to enter better in topics

==> In my opinion, clubs can organise whatever they want, female-only, flinta-only, non-white-only, non-hetero-only and male-only tournaments
male-only ? wwouhlééé this is brave… i have to say that if a club organises a “white-only” , “male-only” , “boomers-only”, “bolos-only” kinda of tournament, you can be sure a bunch of people from our community will troll this event. count on me :slight_smile: LOL.
i don’t think a club can do WHATEVER. I think Bike polo includes a lot of political statements, sometimes not so exposed. I don’t think we are just playing a sport. Some topics like discrimination need to be confronted in the most respectful dialogue between us. When you organise something under the label of Bike Polo you are not an individual neither neutral.

==> If someone doesn’t like the idea and doesn’t support it, he won’t play - probably, such a tournament will naturally reduce its popularity, player’s level, etc.
I think, talking about humans, Naturally is unfortunately an illusion. I wish we were a volcano or a wild river haha. Some of us are in the urge of seeing a more mixed group of people attending all kind of bike polo events. A lot have been said / explained already. We are proposing, sometimes imposing ways to reach this. And we won’t stop. And yes, for sure, we don’t agree. Some people don’t want that, or don’t give a shit. Just say it loud and we’ll deal with it together. Hate and cancel is not the point. We are not so much in this bike polo world, this is fragile. No need to loose players. Take care and don’t wait till you become a silent cocote minute, explose and auto eject yourself.

==>Every year, there are more mandatory mixed tournaments, and nobody ever imposed it on clubs
well, clubs themselves impose it (sometimes) to the community. That’s how a peer to peer community test and explore new things. Impose or prioritise mixity = more mixed teams appear, more mixed tournaments are created and loved. Nothing is natural here.

==>" Let me also remind you that sexism, racism and every other discrimination don’t exclude any groups from being discriminated against."
Can you formulate this in other words please ? i don’t understand, sorry

Hope this message finds you well. I’m here, with open ears and heart for real.
bisou
anne lise

5 Likes
#41

==> Can you formulate this in other words please ? i don’t understand, sorry

Sexism is prejudice or discrimination based on sex, and racism is prejudice or discrimination based on race. It doesn’t say that you can’t discriminate against white males or that it is some kind of better. It is just as bad and as ugly as discriminating against other sexes and races. You can’t fight discrimination with discrimination. It is as if you will fight cannibals by eating them.

==> well, clubs themselves impose it
You’ve just proved my point, but you create some illusion of my mistake by some eristics abusing the word “natural” I used.
Natural doesn’t mean it happened suddenly, out of thin air. If individuals or groups can convince the club to organise a mixed tournament of any form, that’s great! More fixed/constant diverse teams will be a natural consequence of more mixed tournaments and it will result in more mixed team playing major tournaments. Grassroots movements are the core of a healthy society. There is a massive difference between the bottom-up approach influenced by individuals and groups that convince clubs to an idea and top-down “edicts” forcing clubs to do something in a specific way.

==> male-only ? wwouhlééé this is brave… i have to say that if a club organises a “white-only” , “male-only” , “boomers-only…
What you said saddens me a lot. You give the right to organise X-only tournaments for some Xs, but you deny the right to others, and you did it based on sex or race. And then you say in open words that you will do everything to ruin the plans of a club or group trying to organise a tournament you don’t accept.
It is nothing more than sexism and racism forced by violence. It sounds like some kind of Orwellian dystopia. Such a strange way to promote “openness” and “inclusiveness.”
And you conclude that the discrimination needs to be confronted by what? By another discrimination?

==> When you organise something under the label of Bike Polo you are not an individual neither neutral.
I have played that lovely sport for 13 years. I love it primarily because of openness and pure kindness and because people welcomed me with open arms even when I was just a beginner and they don’t even know me. There was no single point in time when someone told me that I am a part of political movement.

===================

To complete my statement… I believe that most players don’t agree with many statements made in this thread, especially they don’t agree with imposing what tournaments/teams are not and what tournaments/teams are fine on the clubs by EHBA. That’s why there is a need to constantly underline and remind that there is some “consent” and that there is “no need for a debate” that “we all agree”, etc.
But that silent majority just want to play bike polo. It doesn’t want to be put in the middle of an ideological fight - that’s why there are 34 posts on that topic from hundreds of people playing bike polo in Europe. I believe any attempts to impose such regulations on clubs organising tournaments by a vocal majority will lead to long-term harm and decay of bike polo.

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#42

also if you make the main circuit ( worlds / euro champ) mandatory mixed , teams will have to work themselves out thru a mixed season.

so probably non mixed tournaments ( which are never dubbed as “non mixed” since its “the norm” , so it totally validate that we have a bias) will happen for all the males (white or not) that arent good enough to find a mixed gender team , ( or all the club that are not diverse enough to not have a person of color )

actually by trying to show a inclusive representation of the bike polo crowd , we might become way less inclusive , towards the biggest current crowd : white males. or just males.

which is fine because we also , as an apolitical-ish but welcoming comunity , we might not want be welcoming to everyone , like neo- nazis ( everyone can agree on that exemple so im gonne take it as a 100% non welcomable mark )

but we want to question the way we are going to make this whole inclusivity thing works because labelling all male events that happen as its a fascist thing is a bit extreme .

i d juste like to see all players get catered enough events to thrive in their polo life : as i see rn some groups demands more recognition while other just want to play. i think its easy to give it to everyone :hugs: and the fact that we manage to not dissociate from each other will show if we are smart enough or not to be within a bigger community.

also the challenges coming with this growth is to present a more “clean public space” for everyone to feel welcome such as lowering private jokes and hedgy heckles for the sake of just being more welcoming with : people from other cultures but also kids and teenagers who are now developing in this sport.we now have young players looking up to us and doing drugs or drinking alcohol is now also a debatable practice.

and whatever happen, please include me :handshake:

1 Like
#43

also if you make the main circuit ( worlds / euro champ) mandatory mixed , teams will have to work themselves out thru a mixed season.

I’ve already pointed out the difference between bottom-up and top-down approaches. The first is more democratic, and the other forces people to do something. You can impose everything until you reach some level of disagreement that people can’t handle, but if they still can take it and do it, it doesn’t mean they actually want it. I am in a bit of a shock that I need to explain it.

so probably non mixed tournaments ( which are never dubbed as “non mixed” since its “the norm” , so it totally validate that we have a bias)

You make me realise how biased we are. Something that you call “non-mixed” allows you to create every single team you want: three males, three females, two males 1 female, two females 1 male etc, etc… You can make every combination for both and believe me, “non-mixed” let you mix more than “mixed” :slight_smile:

but we want to question the way we are going to make this whole inclusivity thing works because labelling all male events that happen as its a fascist thing is a bit extreme .

It happened in the past and resulted in a “discussion” that made some people question if they wanted to play bike polo - it is not “a bit” extreme it is just extreme.

also the challenges coming with this growth is to present a more “clean public space” for everyone to feel welcome such as lowering private jokes and hedgy heckles for the sake of just being more welcoming with : people from other cultures but also kids and teenagers who are now developing in this sport.we now have young players looking up to us and doing drugs or drinking alcohol is now also a debatable practice.

I can’t disagree. The things that you outlined need to be revised. That’s why grassroots movements and freedom on the club level are so important. Freedom = responsibility. You can’t impose culture, beliefs, openness, welcomeness, or just “being a decent person” on a group of people by some kind of decree. In my opinion, organic work (I think it is an international term but has Polish roots) is the way to create a great and resilient society/environment.

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#44

I am silent here so far, but I for one like it way better to participate at mixed tournaments and am 100% in favour of making this a mixed mandatory sport!

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#45

Of course, I phrased my sentence inaccurately., but you took it out of the context a bit. That was the beginning of the reasoning: “I believe that most players don’t”, so there is that definition of that silent majority. It doesn’t refer to every single player that didn’t post here. But I will rephrase it a bit to avoid misunderstanding:
Some of that silent majority just want to play bike polo…

And, of course, that’s your inalienable right. I just showed my arguments (that you didn’t refer to) and underlined that it’s not fair to, based on a discussion with 38 posts of approximately 20 authors, imply that there is some consensus in the society of hundreds of people (offline discussion is several times larger than this thread).
I’ve got great news for all people who believe we all want the same. It means that in a really short time, all the tournaments will become mixed, and euros will be mixed without any additional rules; the overwhelming majority in consent will organise only mandatory mixed tournaments and play only in diverse teams.

1 Like
#46

also, please note that there is no real federation, so there is no real chance of the community “imposing” anything on clubs. At the most, non mixed tournaments will become unpopular.
Just like the whole “cancel culture” debate, it feels a lot like shadowboxing.
I think all people want in the end is that
a) everyone acknowledges that there are disparities/ not that much diversity, which points to
b) the fact it is not equally easy or inviting for everybody to participate (and if you don’t believe that, just openly ask your friends who are not white dudes) and
c) we try to figure out together how to move ahead. If you have good suggestions beyond the ones you don’t seem to like, shoot!
Saying that imposing rules never helps just kind of lacks evidence. I do get obstructed a lot less ever since that rule was imposed on us - weird…
And the “silent majority” also lacks evidence. You might be right but you might just as well be wrong…

Saying “yeah everybody just needs to be nice and help a bit” obviously doesn’t cut it for everyone…so I can understand that people don’t like to hear that.

It’s a community - and there is no such thing in the world as an “apolitical sphere”. everything is political. But the main motivation to push for more inclusiveness is, figure! that everyone just wants to play polo. And everyone, specifically at the beginning probably makes shit experiences. But some definitely more that others.

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#47

also, as a moderator I have to say I don’t really like your tone in the last message, last part.
you can get worked up for sure, but please try to stay respectful <3
If anyone wants to know more: https://poloverse.net/tos

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