What would you call

Discussions Rules
#22

Bravo @pajac

1 Like
#23

although in reality the concept of reffing bike polo is constantly evolving as the players gameplay evolve , so there is room to do exactly everything you said we cant do to refine that ruleset and gameplay

i stand with my previous post and would like people to reflect on where is the line to be drawn in such contacts

in basket ball i was introduced to “personal space” : you cant defend on a players body by crossing through his legs for exemple

id say something similar could be done in polo, as the player s personal space is hardly defined ( but still present , ie freedom of occupying your own space)

here we are not only discussing a call but a recurring situation that create issues in the gameplay

#24

rule set are actually never vague , but ref discretion is a thing.

have alook at how nba crypted the contacts , there are very specific forms of contact tolerated , depending on how the player is positioned , but also where on the court its happening , and depending on who has the ball possession of course

https://official.nba.com/rule-no-12-fouls-and-penalties/

B. Personal Foul

Section I—Types

  1. A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an opponent by extending a hand, arm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a position that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately.
  2. Contact initiated by the defensive player guarding a player with the ball is not legal. This contact includes, but is not limited to, forearm, hands, or body check.
  3. EXCEPTIONS:
    1. A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball who has his back to the basket below the free throw line extended outside the Lower Defensive Box.
    2. A defender may apply contact with a forearm and/or one hand with a bent elbow to an offensive player in a post-up position with the ball in the Lower Defensive Box.
    3. A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball at any time in the Lower Defensive Box. The forearm in the above exceptions is solely for the purpose of maintaining a defensive position.
    4. A defender may position his leg between the legs of an offensive player in a post-up position in the Lower Defensive Box for the purpose of maintaining defensive position. If his foot leaves the floor in an attempt to dislodge his opponent, it is a foul immediately.
    5. Incidental contact with the hand against an offensive player shall be ignored if it does not affect the player’s speed, quickness, balance and/or rhythm.
  4. Any player whose actions against an opponent cause illegal contact with yet another opponent has committed the personal foul.
  5. A personal foul committed by the offensive team during a throw-in shall be an offensive foul, regardless of whether the ball has been released.
  6. Contact which occurs on the hand of the offensive player, while that part of the hand is in contact with the ball, is legal.
  7. EXCEPTION: Flagrant and punching fouls.
  8. PENALTIES: The offender is charged with a personal foul. The offending team is charged with a team foul if the illegal contact was caused by the defender. There is no team foul if there are personal fouls on one member of each team or the personal foul is against an offensive player. The offended team is awarded:
    1. the ball out-of-bounds on the sideline at the nearest spot where play was interrupted but no nearer to the baseline than the free throw line extended if an offensive foul is assessed.
    2. the ball out-of-bounds on the sideline where play was interrupted but no nearer to the baseline than the free throw line extended if the personal foul is on the defender and if the penalty situation is not in effect.
    3. one free throw attempt if the personal foul is on the defender and there is a successful field goal or free throw on the play.
    4. two/three free throw attempts if the personal foul is on the defender and the offensive player is in the act of shooting an unsuccessful field goal.
    5. one free throw attempt plus a penalty free throw attempt if the personal foul is on the defender and the offensive player is not in the act of attempting a field goal if the penalty situation is in effect.
    6. two free throw attempts and possession of the ball on the sideline nearest the spot where play was interrupted if an offensive player, or a teammate, is fouled while having a clear-path-to-the-basket. A clear path to the basket foul occurs if: (i) personal foul is committed on any offensive player during his team’s transition scoring opportunity; (ii) when the foul occurs, the ball is ahead the tip of the circle in the backcourt, no defender is ahead of the offensive player with the scoring opportunity and that offensive player is in control of the ball or a pass to him has been released; and (iii) the defensive foul deprives the offensive team of a transition scoring opportunity. A clear path to the basket foul cannot occur if (i) the offensive player is fouled in the act of shooting or (ii) the foul is caused by the defender’s attempt to intercept or deflect a pass intended for the offensive player with the transition scoring opportunity.
    7. two free throw attempts if a personal foul is committed against an offensive player without the ball when his team has at least a one-man advantage on a fast break and the defensive player takes a foul to stop play.

Section II—By Dribbler

  1. A dribbler shall not (1) charge into an opponent who has established a legal guarding position, or (2) attempt to dribble between two opponents, or (3) attempt to dribble between an opponent and a boundary, where sufficient space is not available for illegal contact to be avoided.
  2. If a defender is able to establish a legal position in the straight line path of the dribbler, the dribbler must avoid contact by changing direction or ending his dribble.
  3. The dribbler must be in control of his body at all times. If illegal contact occurs, the responsibility is on the dribbler.
  4. PENALTY: The offender is assessed an offensive foul. There is no team foul. The ball is awarded to the offended team on the sideline nearest the spot where play was interrupted but no nearer to the baseline than the free throw line extended.
  5. EXCEPTION: Rule 3—Section I—a.
  6. If a dribbler has sufficient space to have his head and shoulders in advance of his defender, the responsibility for illegal contact is on the defender.
  7. If a dribbler has established a straight line path, a defender may not crowd him out of that path.
  8. PENALTY: The defender shall be assessed a personal foul and a team foul. If the penalty is not in effect, the offended team is awarded the ball on the sideline nearest the spot where play was interrupted but no nearer to the baseline than the free throw line extended. If the penalty is in effect, one free throw attempt plus a penalty free throw attempt is awarded.

Section III—By Screening

A player who sets a screen shall not (1) assume a position nearer than a normal step from an opponent, if that opponent is stationary and unaware of the screener’s position, or make illegal contact with an opponent when he assumes a position at the side or front of an opponent, or (3) assume a position so near to a moving opponent that he is not given an opportunity to avoid contact before making illegal contact, or (4) move laterally or toward an opponent being screened, after having assumed a legal position. The screener may move in the same direction and path of the opponent being screened.

In (3) above, the speed of the opponent being screened will determine what the screener’s stationary position may be. This position will vary and may be one to two normal steps or strides from his opponent.

Section IV—Flagrant Foul

  1. If contact committed against a player, with or without the ball, is interpreted to be unnecessary, a flagrant foul—penalty (1) will be assessed. A personal foul is charged to the offender and a team foul is charged to the
  2. PENALTY: (1) Two free throws shall be attempted and the ball awarded to the offended team on either side of the court at the free throw line extended. (2) If the offended player is injured and unable to attempt his free throws, his coach will select one of the remaining four players in the game to attempt the free throws. (3) His coach will pick the substitute, who may not be replaced until the ball is legally touched by a player on the court. (EXCEPTION: Rule 3—Section V—e.) (4) The injured player may not return to the game. (EXCEPTION: Rule 9-Section II-a-(2)) (5) A player will be ejected if he commits two flagrant fouls in the same game.
  3. If contact committed against a player, with or without the ball, is interpreted to be unnecessary and excessive, a flagrant foul—penalty (2) will be assessed. A personal foul is charged to the offender and a team foul is charged to the
  4. PENALTY: (1) Two free throws shall be attempted and the ball awarded to the offended team on either side of the court at the free throw line extended. (2) If the offended player is injured and unable to attempt his free throws, his coach will select a substitute and any player from the team is eligible to attempt the free throws. (3) This substitute may not be replaced until the ball is legally touched by a player on the court. EXCEPTION: Rule 3— Section V—e. (4) The injured player may return to the game at any time after the free throws are attempted. (5) This is an unsportsmanlike act and the offender is ejected.
  5. A flagrant foul may be assessed whether the ball is dead or alive.
  6. A foul must be reviewed using Instant Replay to confirm it meets the criteria to be ruled a Flagrant (1) or (2).
#25

i like how exceptions are announced as well , sometimes the polo ruleset is confusing and some lines can be either interpreted as an exception or as a follow up to the line before

#26

I didn’t play in NBA, but… I did play competitive basketball since I was 12 years old to almost the end of my studies. One of my colleagues is a professional referee in the Polish league. What I can tell is that referees need to put a lot of work to be good refs (courses, camps, reffing kids, reffing teenagers, reffing adults), they are constantly improving their skills. Still difference between pro ref and someone who is still learning is huge. Players don’t know a lot of rules, they just play, every game is reffed bit differently, every ref defines border between foul and soft contact a bit differently etc. etc. ruleset (actually like every code) are just an attempt to catch something fluid in to words.
So… in basketball (ruleset are different between NBA and Europe) we’ve got trained and paid refs, complicated and detailed rule set and still reffing is a problem, in young leagues and university leagues it is a huge problem - number of mistakes is huge.

We don’t have that luxury to have well educated and trained refs which in my opinion leads to more general ruleset driven by some intuition and good will.

Of course I will support and constructively work on every proposition of change in the ruleset. I just think that putting an a4 page of rules more is not a solution.

My general take on that specific case is that I don’t think that current “t-bone rule” can be abused by the way presented by @Sapo. If it will be abused by that way then we should look for a solution.

1 Like
#27

Another foul, similar to a t-bone is as follows.

Player A will try to duck under an opposing player B (B is not rolling backwards), A’s pedal catches on the rear wheel of player B’s bike perpendicularly, causing B to topple over.

#28

yeah and this one is obvious cuz if player B is not hopping or rolling backward then its a clear pedal strike on the rear wheel.

also a rear wheel is rigid , opposed to the front wheel , wich can turn.

this make the same foul harder to catch because of the front wheel mobility

if we look again at punch stance , and what alejandro question : why luca looks like he is flying ?

id say that if u look again , you can see punch bracing / springing back into luca back wheel once he lodged his front wheel in the center , thats why it could be that its not a pedal strike from luca

because the situation is such a mess , and hard to tell , id say again that punch ( white player) best move is to remain static and solid once the contact happen , and luca (black player) should try to take a trajectory that goes away from putting himself subject to a possible pedal strike : thats why i said that if both players are working toward to create this messy contact they should both get sanctioned .